Archives For Sex

Sex Beyond Valentine’s Day

February 14, 2013 — 1 Comment

Happy Valentine’s Day. Today is a big day for most couples. It’s the day of love. The day of romance. The one day we set aside to prioritize the most important relationship in our life.

Because today is the day of romance and desire, we want to talk about sex.

Most couples struggle in the area of sexual intimacy. For many couples, one of the greatest areas of conflict, disappointment and unmet expectations is in the area of sex. For as much as we talk about sex, hear about sex, have sexually driven commercials and TV shows, romanticize about sex and read about sex, we aren’t very good at experiencing sexual intimacy.

Before Trish and I separated in 2005, sexual intimacy was a huge area of conflict for us.

I wanted it, she didn’t.

She usually won.

We would go days, weeks, sometimes a few months without having sex. But there were certain days I knew sexual intimacy was not only possible, it was probable.

New Year’s Eve…possible.

My birthday…slam dunk. Even if she didn’t want to, she would offer.

Valentine’s Day was a day I knew I could anticipate the probability of sex because it was the romantic thing to do.

The odds are, as you celebrate Valentine’s Day, sex will be probable for you. But how do you improve your sex life beyond Valentine’s Day? Here are a few things you must have to improve sex in your marriage.

Honesty

The word intimacy means “to be fully known.” For years I lived not being fully honest with Trish, and wondered why there wasn’t a romantic connection in our relationship. When we aren’t fully honest with one another, when we keep secrets, withhold feelings, distort the truth or lie to our spouse, we are breaking the intimacy God designed us to experience. On the other hand, when we are completely honest and transparent, it is uncomfortable for sure, but it creates a spiritual and emotional connection that increases our desire to be together sexually. Are you fully known by your spouse?

Availability 

You won’t have sex with your spouse if you aren’t available. Rocket science, I know. This is something we are struggling with right now. As the book has released and our travel schedule has picked up, our kids lives haven’t slowed down, and our availability to one another has been significantly reduced. I’m not just talking about being in the same room…I’m talking about being fully present with one another. If you aren’t available to your spouse, the desire for sexual intimacy will not be strong. Are you available…truly available to your spouse?

Intentionality

Nothing great happens by accident. You have to be intentional. That is why today is a day many couples will have sex. There was intention to finding a babysitter. There were dinner reservations made. Flowers were bought; chocolates will be given; lingerie was purchased and will be worn. At least one day a year we are intentional about being romantic. If you are dissatisfied with sexual intimacy in your marriage…be intentional. Choose to change something beyond Valentine’s Day. As we intentionally pursue our spouse, our spouses desire for us increases. Are you intentionally pursuing your spouse?

We don’t always get this right. Just because you know something doesn’t mean you always choose it. But these three truths recenter us. They remind us that God’s desire for our marriage is for us to have sexual fulfillment and enjoyment. Honestly, that is both Trish and my desire as well. It is possible.

You can have a great sex life, even after Valentine’s Day.

3 Lies Porn Will Tell You

January 31, 2013 — 3 Comments

Three years into our marriage, Trish woke up in the middle of the night and I wasn’t in bed. She walked out into the living room and looked at the TV and I quickly changed the channel. She began to question me about what I was watching; why I was watching that; and asking me repeatedly if I struggled with lust and pornography.

I told her I was just channel surfing. I argued with her about what she saw. I convinced her that I didn’t struggle with porn or lust. She had nothing to worry about. I was lying.

I didn’t know it at the time, but that night was the first of many opportunities I had over the first 10 years of my marriage to be honest about my porn addiction. I had friends I could have talked to. I had accountability partners I lied to. I had other pastors I blew off when asked about sexual sins and struggles.

In my mind, my intentions were good…I was trying to protect my marriage. The reality is, I bought the lies porn told me.

For the amount of people who struggle with this, we don’t talk about it near enough. We don’t talk about in our families. We don’t talk about it in our churches. We think avoiding it will make it go away. Statistically speaking, over 55% of the men reading this post have some regular exposure to pornography. It isn’t going away.

Here are the lies porn tells you every day.

1. That was the last time.

No matter how many times you’ve looked at pornography, that was your last time. Because you truly believe it is your last time buying the magazine; last time going to the web site; last time downloading that movie, you don’t need to confess it, because it was the last time. Until tomorrow or next week or next month. It is the last time…until the next time. If porn can convince you that this time is the last time you’ll never tell anyone.

2. You can stop anytime you want.

You know what pornography has done to other marriages, to other friends, to other families, to other church leaders…but you aren’t really “addicted” to pornography. You can stop anytime you want. Besides it doesn’t have the same effect on you that it does on other people. It won’t hurt your life, your marriage, your kids, your church, your ministry like it has other people. You are in control of porn, it doesn’t control you.

3. Hiding is the best way to deal with it.

Porn will try to convince you that you confession will cost you too much. You think you are helping yourself and your marriage by hiding your porn addiction. Your wife won’t understand. Your marriage won’t recover. Your credibility won’t be able to be rebuilt. Hiding sin will never provide you with the power to overcome it. The freedom you long for is found in confession. Freedom costs you something up front, but not as much as bondage will cost you over time.

The power of this struggle lies in its ability to keep us quiet. If you struggle with porn, talk to someone. Talk to a friend, your pastor, email us…

Believing lies will never give you the power to overcome them.

Truth conquers lies and sets us free. 

 

We wrap up this blog series we’ve been in this week, talking about how easy it is to be on different pages in marriage. If you want to check out the other two posts  you can here:

Finances

Parenting

One of the most difficult areas of marriage is the area of sex. Not many of us are prepared for the sexual complexity in marriage. I know we weren’t. For the first ten years of our marriage, this area cause more arguments, created more resentment and put us on different pages more than any other area. We just didn’t get each other.

There has been a lot written about sex and by no means do we hope to solve every problem with this post. But I (Justin) want to share with you a few principles that will move you closer to one another (pun intended) in this area of your marriage. These are the starting point.

Continue Reading…

Several months ago I got a call from one of our pastors. He had agreed to do a wedding for a couple in our church, but had an unexpected conflict come up in his schedule and was unable to perform their ceremony. Their wedding was three weeks away. I agreed to perform the ceremony and made an appointment to do dinner with the couple. 

A few nights later I met Rory Vaden and his soon to be wife A.J. My life was changed for the better. Rory is one of the most caring, selfless men I have ever met. He and A.J. are a couple that every pastor dreams of marrying. They love God deeply and love one another fully. Since his wedding, Rory has written a New York Times Best Selling book called, Take the Stairs. It is such an inspirational book. We are honored to have Rory guest post today, and man is it a powerful post. 

Follow: Rory on Twitter

Buy: Take The Stairs

____________________________________________

You’ve probably heard the phrase before “what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.” Well, recently I went to Las Vegas to celebrate one of my best friend’s bachelor parties. There is a reason why they call it “Sin City”. Temptation and indulgence of every kind lurks at every corner – literally.

One of the easiest and most common temptations to find is sex. You can’t move your head without seeing suggestions of sex on a billboard, sidewalk, or at a dance club. While I am very proud of the group of men that I went with for having one of the best times in my life without engaging in any actions that would be in any sin category I’d be lying to you if I told you I got out of there scott-free…

See the problem for me was not my actions but my thoughts. I desperately love my wife. I’m infatuated with her. I’m committed to her. I’m passionately on fire for her. She’s my best friend and she’s the reason I live. She is the only woman I’d ever be with and ever want to be with. Because that is true, I really wish I could say I that I never notice other women but that wouldn’t be honest.

It was a weekend full of sun and pools, which meant lots of women in bikinis. Being married that meant a weekend of internal conflict. Yet I can truthfully tell you that any notice of another woman was a short and fleeting thought.

Why?

Because as a man I’ve finally come to realize some truths for myself about sexual temptation that are helping me be a better husband:

Continue Reading…

Counterfeit Intimacy

June 14, 2012 — 5 Comments

I (Justin) was never taught how to develop true intimacy, never realized the spiritual aspect of intimacy and never considered there could be any deeper level of intimacy than having sex. Almost from the beginning of our marriage, I fell into the trap of withholding parts of my heart from Trisha. It wasn’t always sin or struggles that I withheld…it was also fears that I was ashamed of, things I didn’t have figured out, issues that I thought would stress her out, financial struggles I knew would worry her, and dreams that I thought she would never understand.

Each time I chose not to share, I diminished the level of intimacy we were capable of experiencing in our marriage.

I wish we could have a do over in this area, and I could go back in time and share everything with her from the beginning. It would have saved us so much hurt.

When, as a guy, you are bankrupt in intimacy, you think sex is the answer.

So premarital sex, pornography, strip clubs, prostitutes, masturbation, affairs, online chat rooms, erotica fiction all carry a false sense of intimacy. Each of these things convinces you that the rush that you will feel, and the pleasure that you will enjoy will bring the satisfaction that you desire…but they never do. In fact, the very opposite is true.

Each of these false expressions of intimacy only leaves you wanting more.

I performed wedding after wedding telling couples that “The two will be united and be one flesh.” But I never considered the spiritual act of sex in our marriage. Because intimacy to me was just sex, I never took time to discover what my wife thought to be intimacy. I never thought what she needed most was all of me; which included my heart, my mind and my soul. What I needed most was all of her; which included her body and her desire to have sex. But because each of us had a jacked up view of intimacy, we were constantly working against each other in this area.

Because this area caused so much tension in our relationship, we basically avoided it.

We would go a week, two weeks sometimes a month without having sex. During that time we would drift relationally, which would feed the cycle that Trisha was in…and our lack of sex would feed my struggle with lust and pornography…which in turn would cause us to lose intimacy.

It was a vicious, destructive cycle.

When we separated, I had a choice to make. I could say the right things to get my wife to take me back, but never confront this intimacy issue and be back in the same place in a matter of time; or I could drag all of the sin and all of the dysfunction and all of the bad habits and all of the unmet expectations out into the open.

There was no guarantee that Trisha would choose me, but if she did, she would be choosing the real me and not a fake version of me.

Because she chose me, and she chose to allow herself to trust me again with her heart, I have made a decision to share my whole heart with my wife. The way that God has grown the intimacy we experience in our marriage is incredible. It isn’t easy to be vulnerable at times, but what we have as a result of intimacy, I wouldn’t trade for anything!

What has been your biggest misconception about intimacy?

The X Factor – “An unknown or hard-to-define influence; a factor with unknown or unforeseeable consequences.”

I would venture to say that the “X Factor” could easily be changed to the “seX Factor” in most marriages today. Sex seems to be the “unknown or hard-to-define influence” in our marital relationships.  I have had several conversations with women, regardless if they have been married 2 or 20 years, and most question the role sexual intimacy should play in their marriage. We know that men think about sex every 7 seconds, but do we really know why? Women (especially those who grew-up in the church) were taught not to talk about sex or have sex because God said so…end of story. Women hear of men struggling with pornography, lust, masturbation and affairs but most of us are ill equipped to know how to respond and so….

We chalk it up as the “X Factor” in our marriage and that we as women will never fully understand our husband’s sexual desires. We feel confused and ashamed and don’t know why we hate, resent or avoid sex. Worse yet, we do know why and the haunting memories of a bad sexual relationship in our past is too painful to get over. If you’re a guy reading this your probably shouting “you go girl, tell my wife sex is good”. If your a woman your probably saying “umm… duh? This is exactly how I feel so what?” One of the most profound principles we have discovered in our move away from destruction is:

Restoration Principle #4: Sexual intimacy, mutually offered, unleashes God’s full desire for your marriage.

Because Justin and I were not virgins coming into our marriage we thought we could somehow redeem our relationship if WE didn’t have sex before our wedding. I can honestly say we did refrain, but it didn’t fix or create a healthy road for sexual intimacy in future years. We were married for 4 months and I got pregnant. Not only was the area of sex new to me in my relationship with Justin, but being pregnant seemed to complicate things at a whole new level. During the first 10 years of our marriage, I found myself camped in the “I don’t really get you and your sex drive” and/or “you made me mad today so no sex for you”. The pattern went something like this… Justin would want to have sex… I wouldn’t… sometimes I gave in… most times I didn’t. If the baby was asleep, laundry done and the moon was aligned with Jupiter I would even offer it to him first.

Until the affair, I didn’t understand how God created both Justin and me for sexual intimacy. I assumed if he was wanting to go there after I spent the day “giving” to kids, laundry, friends and regular life events then he was just plain SELFISH! At some point in our relationship I permanently camped out in this mindset and found that not only did I not understand sex, I didn’t really care to.

Facts about the seX Factor: When a boy starts puberty his body will create sperm that will transfer to storage sacks that when are at capacity will naturally release from the body. I share this piece of information because this is an innocent process of change. There is no baggage or agenda, just a simple fact of nature. But somehow, what is natural and how God intended has become grossly misunderstood. And many of us have been left confused as to how to respond in our marriage relationship. This was a HUGE hurdle for Justin and I to jump over to really have the sexual intimacy God wanted for us. Men have a true PHYSICAL need for intimacy.

After Justin and I separated, not only was I leery of being friends with him, I was petrified of becoming lovers. I leaned on my old understanding of what I thought sex was while trying deal with the hurt Justin had caused. In the weeks that followed, God totally shattered those old thoughts and gave me a new view of sex. I love the way the Message paraphrases this scripture:

1 Corinthians 7:2-5 (The Message) “Sexual drives are strong, but marriage is strong enough to contain them and provide for a balanced and fulfilling sexual life in a world of sexual disorder. The marriage bed must be a place of mutuality—the husband seeking to satisfy his wife, the wife seeking to satisfy her husband. Marriage is not a place to “stand up for your rights.” Marriage is a decision to serve the other, whether in bed or out.”

I learned that Justin wasn’t being selfish but had a true physical AND spiritual need that God would use to bring us close in a way that only this type of intimacy could. Justin also learned how my need for intimacy came through the expression of his words and his actions. Grace is freely given but trust is earned! As Justin slowly earned back my trust and I felt that he was repentant and willing to do whatever it took to grow in this area then, and ONLY then, could this journey move forward. We have learned to be on this journey TOGETHER and fight for it to no longer be the X Factor in our marriage but the catalyst for growth and development as a couple. Not only is Justin my best friend, he is my lover.

Our experience in moving from destruction to restoration has come from understanding and embracing this principle. Sexual intimacy is God’s gift to us as husband and wife to protect, satisfy and guard our relationship.

Oh, if learning from our mistakes was as easy as asking “miss-know-it all” Lucy for help!

One of the biggest mistakes I (Trisha) made in our marriage was in the area of physical intimacy. I went to sex education class in 7th grade. Unfortunately, I made poor choices in high school that made sex education more than just a textbook. By the time I met and married Justin I brought enough baggage of sexual brokenness with me that I forgot what life was like without it.

We got married young. We had kids young. Most of our adult life Justin and I experienced numerous “first time” experiences together.  The poor guy had to experience what it was like to purchase feminine products for the first time after being married less than 24 hours!

Learning how to have a healthy sex life was no exception. We both came into our marriage broken but because we waited to have sex with each other until we got married, we honestly convinced ourselves that staying pure with each other would cover all sins. We were wrong.

I made the mistake of viewing physical intimacy as an afterthought rather than a foundational part of our relationship. Even worse, I eventually used it as a means to get back at Justin. It was my weapon.

When Justin came home late… again…

When Justin didn’t help around the house…

When Justin embarrassed me in front of our small group…

When Justin didn’t meet my expectations my response was to get back at him by refusing to be intimate with him.

When I think about it now, it’s a wonder that we didn’t self-destruct within the first couple years of marriage. It wasn’t until I almost lost my marriage that I finally realized how lost I was in understanding God’s purpose of sexually intimacy. I was on a mission to figure it out and what I found was a panoramic view of intimacy I had never seen before. The definition of intimacy is to be fully known. God calls us to be fully known by our spouse emotionally, spiritually and, yes, physically.

Read what 1 Corinthians 7:2-6 says:

“It’s good for a man to have a wife, and for a woman to have a husband. Sexual drives are strong, but marriage is strong enough to contain them and provide for a balanced and fulfilling sexual life in a world of sexual disorder. The marriage bed must be a place of mutuality—the husband seeking to satisfy his wife, the wife seeking to satisfy her husband. Marriage is not a place to “stand up for your rights.” Marriage is a decision to serve the other, whether in bed or out.”

I am often asked how was I able to be sexually intimate with Justin after the affair and his ten-year addiction to pornography when my view of sex was already so messed-up.  What I love about this passage is that it answers the question for me. Anyone can have sex-but intimacy comes with a price. You have to give more of yourself emotionally, lean into each other more spiritually and the end result is an intimate relationship that surpasses any person’s fantasy. Why? Because its not fantasy at all. Fantasy feels good in the beginning but in the end it leaves you empty. Pure, God centered, intimacy is long lasting.

This type of intimacy grows over time and leaves you constantly longing for each other and no one else. Not pornography… not another man or woman… Nothing. It truly becomes an act of serving each other in a way that no other relationship was meant to fill.

I love that! I can honestly say over the past seven years God has redeemed every single choice from our past and given us not only a healthy view of sex but rather a continued desire to serve each other “whether in bed or out”. Sex is no longer a tool for us to get what we want but rather a cherished gift from God in which to serve one another.

Did you have a clear understanding of sexual intimacy going into marriage?

 

 

One Thing

July 6, 2011 — Leave a comment

In February 2009, Justin and I made the decision to begin writing about the destruction of our marriage. We launched our 8 Things that Destroyed Our Marriage Series, Valentines week. We had no idea that our blog would reach so many people, would lead us to start a non-profit ministry and would connect us with so many people from around the world. We just wanted to be faithful to share our story of hope and redemption…God has done the rest. We spend a lot of our time talking to couples who have had their marriage fall apart. They are broken, they are hurting, many are on life support and some don’t recover.

It’s hard to find the right balance between having a healthy marriage and a healthy ministry. There’s this constant battle to cheat one over the other. In the midst of this battle, there is usually one thing that puts us on opposite pages with our husband. The calendar can change. Our seasons of life can change, but this ONE THING remains in the middle of our relationship.

I’m excited to share today at Leading and Loving It. You can read the rest of this post and comment by CLICKING HERE.

The X Factor – “An unknown or hard-to-define influence; a factor with unknown or unforeseeable consequences.”

I would venture to say that the “X Factor” could easily be changed to the “seX Factor” in most marriages today. Sex seems to be the “unknown or hard-to-define influence” in our marital relationships.  I have had several conversations with women, regardless if they have been married 2 or 20 years, and most question the role sexual intimacy should play in their marriage. We know that men think about sex every 7 seconds, but do we really know why? Women (especially those who grew-up in the church) were taught not to talk about sex or have sex because God said so…end of story. Women hear of men struggling with pornography, lust, masturbation and affairs but most of us are ill equipped to know how to respond and so….

We chalk it up as the “X Factor” in our marriage and that we as women will never fully understand our husband’s sexual desires. We feel confused and ashamed and don’t know why we hate, resent or avoid sex. Worse yet, we do know why and the haunting memories of a bad sexual relationship in our past is too painful to get over. If you’re a guy reading this your probably shouting “you go girl, tell my wife sex is good”. If your a woman your probably saying “umm… duh? This is exactly how I feel so what?” One of the most profound principles we have discovered in our move away from destruction is:

Restoration Principle #4: Sexual intimacy, mutually offered, unleashes God’s full desire for your marriage.

Because Justin and I were not virgins coming into our marriage we thought we could somehow redeem our relationship if WE didn’t have sex before our wedding. I can honestly say we did refrain, but it didn’t fix or create a healthy road for sexual intimacy in future years. We were married for 4 months and I got pregnant. Not only was the area of sex new to me in my relationship with Justin, but being pregnant seemed to complicate things at a whole new level. During the first 10 years of our marriage, I found myself camped in the “I don’t really get you and your sex drive” and/or “you made me mad today so no sex for you”. The pattern went something like this… Justin would want to have sex… I wouldn’t… sometimes I gave in… most times I didn’t. If the baby was asleep, laundry done and the moon was aligned with Jupiter I would even offer it to him first.

Until the affair, I didn’t understand how God created both Justin and me for sexual intimacy. I assumed if he was wanting to go there after I spent the day “giving” to kids, laundry, friends and regular life events then he was just plain SELFISH! At some point in our relationship I permanently camped out in this mindset and found that not only did I not understand sex, I didn’t really care to.

Facts about the seX Factor: When a boy starts puberty his body will create sperm that will transfer to storage sacks that when are at capacity will naturally release from the body. I share this piece of information because this is an innocent process of change. There is no baggage or agenda, just a simple fact of nature. But somehow, what is natural and how God intended has become grossly misunderstood. And many of us have been left confused as to how to respond in our marriage relationship. This was a HUGE hurdle for Justin and I to jump over to really have the sexual intimacy God wanted for us. Men have a true PHYSICAL need for intimacy.

After Justin and I separated, not only was I leery of being friends with him, I was petrified of becoming lovers. I leaned on my old understanding of what I thought sex was while trying deal with the hurt Justin had caused. In the weeks that followed, God totally shattered those old thoughts and gave me a new view of sex. I love the way the Message paraphrases this scripture:

1 Corinthians 7:2-5 (The Message) “Sexual drives are strong, but marriage is strong enough to contain them and provide for a balanced and fulfilling sexual life in a world of sexual disorder. The marriage bed must be a place of mutuality—the husband seeking to satisfy his wife, the wife seeking to satisfy her husband. Marriage is not a place to “stand up for your rights.” Marriage is a decision to serve the other, whether in bed or out.”

I learned that Justin wasn’t being selfish but had a true physical AND spiritual need that God would use to bring us close in a way that only this type of intimacy could. Justin also learned how my need for intimacy came through the expression of his words and his actions. Grace is freely given but trust is earned! As Justin slowly earned back my trust and I felt that he was repentant and willing to do whatever it took to grow in this area then, and ONLY then, could this journey move forward. We have learned to be on this journey TOGETHER and fight for it to no longer be the X Factor in our marriage but the catalyst for growth and development as a couple. Not only is Justin my best friend, he is my lover.

Our experience in moving from destruction to restoration has come from understanding and embracing this principle. Sexual intimacy is God’s gift to us as husband and wife to protect, satisfy and guard our relationship.

Affair-Proof Your Marriage

December 2, 2010 — 7 Comments

There are several people each week that contact us through our blog and ask us how to avoid having an affair. Some are newly married and don’t want make the same mistake I did. Some are on the verge of crossing some boundaries that they promised their spouse they would never cross. No matter where you are in your marriage today…these five things we believe will serve to affair-proof your marriage.

1.     Pursue God

I’ve never talked to anyone who has cheated on their spouse who has told me that their relationship with God was healthy when they had an affair. The truth is that your marriage will not be perfect. You will have problems. You will face temptation. But if you are pursuing God; His Word; His truth and allowing Him to form you and shape you, that is the best thing you can do to affair-proof your marriage.

2.     Pursue Your Spouse

It is hard to fall out of love with someone you are pursuing. It is difficult to lose interest in someone that you are prioritizing. Other people don’t look so attractive when you are setting aside time to pursue and date your spouse. Most couples lose interest in one another because they fail to spend time with one another. Sitting next to each other at your kid’s soccer game or a band concert doesn’t count. Date your spouse. Buy her flowers. Put perfume on before he gets home from work. Go out on a date that isn’t the movies. Talk. Laugh. Pursue.

3.     Don’t Fantasize About Someone Else

All sin starts in our mind. I’ve never heard anyone say, “I never thought about that, it just happened.” All sin starts as a thought. The Bible calls it temptation. Temptation is normal. Temptation is common. Temptation is something that you are guaranteed to face. Jesus experienced temptation. Temptation becomes sinful when it moves to fantasy. When you begin to fantasize about someone other than your spouse, you have already broken intimacy in your heart and mind with your husband or wife. It is why the Bible says to guard our hearts. It’s why the Bible says that what ever is pure and lovely and true…to think on those things. Affairs always start in our mind.

4.     Share Your Secrets

Every time we withhold truth from our spouse we create distance in our marriage. Oneness is how the Bible describes our marriage relationship. Secrets have no part of oneness. Secrets break oneness. The word intimacy means, “to be fully known.” When we don’t allow our spouse to fully know us, we compromise intimacy. I am not saying that keeping secrets from your spouse will cause you to have an affair. I am saying that not keeping secrets from your spouse will prevent you from having an affair. It is hard to for sin to grow in light. It is hard for deceit to grow in the context of authentic truth.

5.     Have Sex

Physical intimacy is a gift from God. It will not solve all of your marriage problems. But if you are committed to pursuing God; pursuing your spouse; keeping your mind and heart pure; sexual intimacy will strengthen the oneness in your relationship like nothing else can. Our culture uses sex to sell for a reason…it is a powerful force in our lives. It can and should be a powerful force in our marriages as well. (Guys, you can print this off and show it to your wife, after you’ve done #1 & #2 :) )

These are our five, what would you add to the list?